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Post by Joel on Aug 3, 2021 5:07:49 GMT -5
I’m sorry, longevity counts. He’s played more games at WR than anyone. 20k + yards, 207 TDs, at a measly 24.6% target %, which is significantly lower than anyone else in the top 15 WRs. Gotta be 1st ballot without thought. If not, then I’m in the same boat as rob, and really questioning what the actual thought process is. edit: and he’s miles ahead of anyone in all purpose yards. Literally. 4400 yards, that’s over a mile So if we don't agree, the whole process stinks? Yep, exactly what im saying 👍 |
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Post by rush27 on Aug 3, 2021 6:04:19 GMT -5
edit: and he’s miles ahead of anyone in all purpose yards. Literally. 4400 yards, that’s over a mile These are the things that make me sit up and notice. All purpose yards is a great argument. Puts things into context. |
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Post by CMax on Aug 3, 2021 14:07:43 GMT -5
I don't see 1st ballot as "best of the best", but rather "clearly HoF material". If there is no doubt he should be in the HoF, why would we not vote for him 1st ballot? Even if Dunn was better, Benzer is a lock for HoF in my mind. Why wait for some perceived "1st ballot honor" to pass? If you believe he is worthy of the HoF, you should vote for him regardless.
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Post by CMax on Aug 3, 2021 14:15:38 GMT -5
The only real issue I see with the HoF process is it is destined to be more of an homage to great GM's, vs. an homage to truly great players. Playing on Pittsburgh or Seattle is going to give players a significant edge in terms of career success. Rob and Nick are great GM's that know how to get the most out of players. Take Frassrand for example. If he had played his career in Pittsburgh or Seattle, is there any doubt he would have played measurably better? Instead, I fumbled his career and he's managed to be only pretty good. Same can be said for Juan Hunter.
Granted, there are guys like Sinclair that were just destined for greatness, but could he have been even better in Pitt or SEA?
Not a complaint on my part, just an observation.
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Post by Nick on Aug 3, 2021 14:40:00 GMT -5
The only real issue I see with the HoF process is it is destined to be more of an homage to great GM's, vs. an homage to truly great players. Playing on Pittsburgh or Seattle is going to give players a significant edge in terms of career success. Rob and Nick are great GM's that know how to get the most out of players. Take Frassrand for example. If he had played his career in Pittsburgh or Seattle, is there any doubt he would have played measurably better? Instead, I fumbled his career and he's managed to be only pretty good. Same can be said for Juan Hunter. Granted, there are guys like Sinclair that were just destined for greatness, but could he have been even better in Pitt or SEA? Not a complaint on my part, just an observation. Yeah some truth in that. I think you can say the same about the NFL. There are players manipulated to greatness, its just that we don't see their ratings like in FOF. Who their team mates are is a big deal. GMs/coaches probably have more influence in FOF. Dunn maxed out at 87, Benzer early 80s, Marincic 77. My OL similar thing, a load of elite players playing together. Maybe in the NFL Montana was an 87 and Rice a 77, or was Rice a 92 and Montanta a 72? We don't know, but you can bet that they aided each others careers. I think we need to work harder at respecting each others opinions in this process. If it is that hard to accept someone has a different opinion a process like this doesn't suit your personality. There is no room to be convinced you are right and someone else is wrong. State your opinion, cast your vote and move on. |
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Post by rush27 on Aug 3, 2021 14:45:30 GMT -5
The only real issue I see with the HoF process is it is destined to be more of an homage to great GM's, vs. an homage to truly great players. Playing on Pittsburgh or Seattle is going to give players a significant edge in terms of career success. Rob and Nick are great GM's that know how to get the most out of players. Take Frassrand for example. If he had played his career in Pittsburgh or Seattle, is there any doubt he would have played measurably better? Instead, I fumbled his career and he's managed to be only pretty good. Same can be said for Juan Hunter. Granted, there are guys like Sinclair that were just destined for greatness, but could he have been even better in Pitt or SEA? Not a complaint on my part, just an observation. Yeah some truth in that. I think you can say the same about the NFL. There are players manipulated to greatness, its just that we don't see their ratings like in FOF. Who their team mates are is a big deal. GMs/coaches probably have more influence in FOF. Dunn maxed out at 87, Benzer early 80s, Marincic 77. My OL similar thing, a load of elite players playing together. Maybe in the NFL Montana was an 87 and Rice a 77, or was Rice a 92 and Montanta a 72? We don't know, but you can bet that they aided each others careers. I think we need to work harder at respecting each others opinions in this process. If it is that hard to accept someone has a different opinion a process like this doesn't suit your personality. There is no room to be convinced you are right and someone else is wrong. State your opinion, cast your vote and move on. My vote doesn't take teammates or GMs into account so I'm on the opposite end. I agree with you about opinions though. Like I've said numerous times before, if five or six GMs disagree with me and vote a guy in, he deserves to be in. |
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Post by Nick on Aug 3, 2021 14:45:57 GMT -5
DE Dillon Sloane looks very close to DE Brendan Hayes in terms of his stats.
Do we think WR Benzer is the only guy in this years class who has a shot at a 1st ballot? Is it a matter of Benzer plus 4 guys from the existing group?
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Post by Joel on Aug 3, 2021 14:50:01 GMT -5
Do we not think McQueen may be on the periphery of getting in?
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Post by Nick on Aug 3, 2021 14:52:44 GMT -5
Yeah I see that its a selectors prerogative to set his own criteria. Myself I do factor in a players background. For example I see Hartman as a system QB. Totally at odds with Puzz who carried his team. I guess with that mindset it will be tougher for Hawks and Steelers to make the HOF, and negate Chris' concerns at least somewhat.
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Post by CMax on Aug 3, 2021 15:12:27 GMT -5
Yeah I see that its a selectors prerogative to set his own criteria. Myself I do factor in a players background. For example I see Hartman as a system QB. Totally at odds with Puzz who carried his team. I guess with that mindset it will be tougher for Hawks and Steelers to make the HOF, and negate Chris' concerns at least somewhat. Not even really "concerns". Just an observation, and your rebuttal had merit. There's no avoiding the fact that voting will be subjective and based on the individual voter's criteria. While I think the GM plays a huge roll in the player's success, and so does the surrounding cast, I will likely base my decisions heavily on overall stats. They are the only solid measuring stick in my view. GM and surrounding cast probably has a significant role, but how do you really measure that? |
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Post by CMax on Aug 3, 2021 15:24:53 GMT -5
DE Dillon Sloane looks very close to DE Brendan Hayes in terms of his stats. Do we think WR Benzer is the only guy in this years class who has a shot at a 1st ballot? Is it a matter of Benzer plus 4 guys from the existing group? I think Sloan should have a legit shot at 1st ballot. Aside from Haynes, he also looks very similar to Kempthorne (same number of years played, slightly more tackles/assists/sacks, slightly fewer FF's). He should get in eventually, and I'd likely vote him 1st ballot. |
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Post by Nick on Aug 3, 2021 15:31:22 GMT -5
I guess like everything it comes down to opinion. Hartman was carried somewhat in Seattle, Puzz did the carrying. Based on nothing but my perception.
I think McQueen was quality Joel. Maybe if him and Rawls swopped teams the averages would look a bit different. That ypc cock blocks his 1st ballot entry I imagine. I think we need to consider him against Upshaw and Henson. If we consider them as gate keepers, McQueen needs to beat them out. I wonder if perhaps he just becomes another gate keeper, on the fence.
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Post by CMax on Aug 3, 2021 15:43:06 GMT -5
Do we not think McQueen may be on the periphery of getting in? I don't see it. Yards were there, TD's were not. Great player and great career, but not elite in my opinion. I see a guy like Jay Brock (when he finally retires) being a periphery type of guy. |
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Post by Nick on Sept 27, 2021 15:54:46 GMT -5
Time to resume the HOF discussion. I will take a look over the prospects over the coming days and discuss my thoughts. If you guys could do the same that would be great.
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Post by Sawblade300 on Sept 27, 2021 17:53:12 GMT -5
1st ballot is best of the best right? We saw Benzer play with Dunn and Dunn was clearly better. So by that logic, if the player isn't as good as Dunn, he doesn't make it. So...Dunn is the 1st ballot bar? That's it? You're not Dunn, you're not in. Pack your bags and go back home. Actually, I don't know why I'm commenting. I'm not on the committee. I just read this every year and keep to myself. But I've seen this pattern of "best of the best" and thought it was a bit strict. So if Benzer put up those stats on another team as a #1 WR...is he 1st ballot? |
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