tzach
Franchise Owner
Bench Warmer
Browns GM
Posts: 426
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Post by tzach on Jan 11, 2023 12:52:07 GMT -5
could you point out when in the video that is covered? hour and min would be helpful! Had to go back through and find it, the discussion begins at 1:35:33 and for context they're talking about top 10 players at each position in the league. Currently looking at OT and Rick (RgVicedo) declares that he runs his top RB to the right, then Juggs comes in and the discussion goes from there.
thanks -- i think there's some confusion and jugg could have worded better when he said 'it doesn't matter where you run, it's all random'. after watching the whole discussion, i'm pretty sure he's talking about who gets the Key Run Block label in the log and in game (that's how the discussion started, with ARI's RT having 51% KRB). i agree it's awarded in the way he describes -- it's a weighted average of the run blocking bar randomly drawed. so the OL with highest RB will most likely get the highest number of KRO and KRB.
i think saw and myself are referring to getting a higher running efficiency when you run behind your best blocker vs the defensive line/LBs. that will not be reflected in the KRBs, and you have to go by the ypc, 3rd down efficiency etc to get a feeling. from all my tests, you can have a field day running inside against teams with poor DTs/NT, or running outside vs poor RBs/CBs.
btw, rick knows what he's talking about and doing. if you wanna run the ball well, just copying what he does is a great start lol (the ihof logs and player cards are public).
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Post by Sawblade300 on Jan 11, 2023 13:28:10 GMT -5
Had to go back through and find it, the discussion begins at 1:35:33 and for context they're talking about top 10 players at each position in the league. Currently looking at OT and Rick (RgVicedo) declares that he runs his top RB to the right, then Juggs comes in and the discussion goes from there.
thanks -- i think there's some confusion and jugg could have worded better when he said 'it doesn't matter where you run, it's all random'. after watching the whole discussion, i'm pretty sure he's talking about who gets the Key Run Block label in the log and in game (that's how the discussion started, with ARI's RT having 51% KRB). i agree it's awarded in the way he describes -- it's a weighted average of the run blocking bar randomly drawed. so the OL with highest RB will most likely get the highest number of KRO and KRB.
i think saw and myself are referring to getting a higher running efficiency when you run behind your best blocker vs the defensive line/LBs. that will not be reflected in the KRBs, and you have to go by the ypc, 3rd down efficiency etc to get a feeling. from all my tests, you can have a field day running inside against teams with poor DTs/NT, or running outside vs poor RBs/CBs.
Yes...this. |
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Post by mellman on Jan 11, 2023 13:37:56 GMT -5
Had to go back through and find it, the discussion begins at 1:35:33 and for context they're talking about top 10 players at each position in the league. Currently looking at OT and Rick (RgVicedo) declares that he runs his top RB to the right, then Juggs comes in and the discussion goes from there.
thanks -- i think there's some confusion and jugg could have worded better when he said 'it doesn't matter where you run, it's all random'. after watching the whole discussion, i'm pretty sure he's talking about who gets the Key Run Block label in the log and in game (that's how the discussion started, with ARI's RT having 51% KRB). i agree it's awarded in the way he describes -- it's a weighted average of the run blocking bar randomly drawed. so the OL with highest RB will most likely get the highest number of KRO and KRB.
i think saw and myself are referring to getting a higher running efficiency when you run behind your best blocker vs the defensive line/LBs. that will not be reflected in the KRBs, and you have to go by the ypc, 3rd down efficiency etc to get a feeling. from all my tests, you can have a field day running inside against teams with poor DTs/NT, or running outside vs poor RBs/CBs.
btw, rick knows what he's talking about and doing. if you wanna run the ball well, just copying what he does is a great start lol (the ihof logs and player cards are public).
Okay, that's reassuring as that's sort of how I'd hoped it would be. I know there is a disconnect between FOF and IRL Football in some places but yeah things like that make sense because they're more intuitively 'football' ideas. Yes! I've been lucky enough to talk a fair amount of FOF with Rick recently, he's doing impressive things with that run game and a super aggressive 3-4 defence in some of his leagues. Thanks for clearing that up Tzach! |
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Post by grimmer on Jan 12, 2023 0:49:12 GMT -5
Sweet! I'll be listening to this soon! You're 3-0 maybe we should be listening to you  What? 3-0 in life? Sweet brother! |
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Post by julioriddols on Jan 12, 2023 7:20:05 GMT -5
One little thing too when relating to the offensive line blocking and who gets credit for what.. I think the randomization of that effect is a great way to sort out the statistical accounting of what goes on on a play, because IRL you have pullers and traps and all kinds of wild line play that results in key blocks literally ending up anywhere no matter what hole the RB runs through.
The above has nothing to do with game planning, however.
I really think the whole thing is as simple as putting the right players in the right position at the right time week to week. Whatever tools or techniques you use to achieve that function are different for almost all of us, but the key comes down to having the right guys out there to pull off what you are attempting on any given plays. The thing that would be nice for all of us to have would be play analysis that is easy to find and presented in a way that translates easily to game planning.
For instance though, if you want to throw downfield there is a checklist of things that will help that
1: you have a qb who is good at throwing down field and accurate (and a good third down passing bar if this is 3rd down... and a good AI bar if you want to minimize risk of turnovers as well)
2: you have WR/TE who can run an intermediate/deep route and win consistently.
3: you have a RB who can pass protect or take the heat off the passing game with a well placed run here and there (Or in some cases, a short passing game that keeps the defense on their heels)
4: you have an OL that can protect like the dickens
5: you have a play in the playbook that is a solid or better fit for your scheme
6: you have an OC that is good at play calling
The more of the things you need to complete a particular play, the better chance you'll have of pulling that off. I really think that's all there is to it. I think this is something we see a lot more now too as we get more familiar with the game, people are running some really particular and interesting stuff that really suits their personnel and the only way to beat them when they're on their game is to match up well and plan well defensively. People are also getting a lot better at defense.
I also think that what works for you one year might not work the same the next. All it takes is a little shift of a couple of the right bars and now you have a completely different chance of completing that pass or making that run that was money just a season ago.
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Post by squirrel on Jan 12, 2023 7:49:12 GMT -5
Three thoughts on this thread
- loved the video, thanks guys
- I wish I could play FOF like my homie tzach
- I wish I could write like my homie Julio! Time after time you nail it my friend
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Post by bylanta on Jan 12, 2023 8:39:54 GMT -5
2: you have WR/TE who can run an intermediate/deep route and win consistently. outside of courage for routes over the middle, what is determining if someone can run intermediate/deep beyond route running? Basically how do bars affect route depth I guess. |
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tzach
Franchise Owner
Bench Warmer
Browns GM
Posts: 426
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Post by tzach on Jan 12, 2023 12:00:47 GMT -5
i don't think there's any recv bar that applies exclusively to short, intermediate, or deep routes.
for having consistent success with a long-passing strategy, in addition to route running I like to use recvs with high Avoid Drops. you won't be able to use too many long throws in a game (5-10ish), and those few that could be completed (3-6ish) would be turned into drops with recvs with low AD.
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Post by squirrel on Jan 12, 2023 12:39:27 GMT -5
i don't think there's any recv bar that applies exclusively to short, intermediate, or deep routes. for having consistent success with a long-passing strategy, in addition to route running I like to use recvs with high Avoid Drops. you won't be able to use too many long throws in a game (5-10ish), and those few that could be completed (3-6ish) would be turned into drops with recvs with low AD. Aka the Rico Sharp problem. Those that know will know |
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Post by thefatcat on Jan 12, 2023 14:05:34 GMT -5
So i hope every one will be pleased to hear Zach is happy to do another show for us, BUT it will be the 1st week of Feb due to life and work commitments. I suggest the show is on drafting as we will be close to th off-season by then. Obviously if the league GMs would like something else now is the time to say |
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Post by ezlee2 on Jan 12, 2023 14:21:03 GMT -5
i don't think there's any recv bar that applies exclusively to short, intermediate, or deep routes. for having consistent success with a long-passing strategy, in addition to route running I like to use recvs with high Avoid Drops. you won't be able to use too many long throws in a game (5-10ish), and those few that could be completed (3-6ish) would be turned into drops with recvs with low AD. Aka the Rico Sharp problem. Those that know will know |
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Post by clown on Jan 12, 2023 15:52:15 GMT -5
Clown is against anymore sharing...
Clown can't handle anymore of this hand holding and sharing.
Its killing Independant Clown
Or
I can not handle, over and over, year after year reminding of these colossal. Mistakes.
Over the last 18 years its like sticking your fingers right in clowns eye
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Post by julioriddols on Jan 13, 2023 9:44:12 GMT -5
Don't worry, the winter of your discontent will melt away in time and reveal a flowering meadow and a bright sunny sky.. The summer of Clown. I just want to know which kind of cheese you'll be eating in your underwear as you bask.
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Post by julioriddols on Jan 13, 2023 12:00:01 GMT -5
2: you have WR/TE who can run an intermediate/deep route and win consistently. outside of courage for routes over the middle, what is determining if someone can run intermediate/deep beyond route running? Basically how do bars affect route depth I guess. Really yeah, mostly route running IMO. I picture throwing and catching as a series of checks. Did the receiver get open? Was the pass accurate? Was it defended/dropped? Was there YAC? Something like that. The first step or one of the first steps in my opinion is route running vs coverage, which probably also factors in route depth and pass rush to determine if the throw is a clean and accurate one. I think the natural progression follows that with what events you would normally expect to take place during and after a catch is attempted or made. So really for a successful passing game that doesn't consist of screens and flats and drags (which I theorize a poor route runner can do without much penalty) you need at the very least a guy who can get open. To max out the efficiency, then you also want big other bars, for sure. You want your third down targets to be good at making third down catches. You want your YAC guys to YAC. There are likely routes that are better for YAC than others, but I wouldn't feel comfortable saying that for certain. There are definitely a ton of variables being used and the more bars you have that suit your scheme the better (get downfield for short passing, big play for deep throws/coryell, big third down bars for smash mouth, extreme talent and depth if you want to run an all passing scheme, etc) I think you can moneyball a solid offense if you can find role players that excel in smaller roles, but you can't throw lots of short stuff to a route running stud who can't get downfield and expect that to yield an effective result. Might complete a lot of them, but most will be stopped after only a few yards. It's still useful to me to run one or two routes out of a guys comfort zone in a game if you can afford to, in order to "tweak the algorithm" a bit.. Even if the play is less effective, if you don't overuse it it can make the more effective stuff that suits the guy work better. This is just an observational theory, but it plays into the documentation mentioning how a lot of effective planning is based around defying expectations and "surprising" an opponent, both on offense and defense.. I think that includes throwing those less effective routes, if only to add to the variance. Same thing with running the ball. You just gotta do it sometimes, unless you have a ton of guys to throw to. Here's something stupid I wrote because I just kept typing: -IF MY OFFENSE WAS A CAR by Julio Riddols- If my offense was a car, the engine would be the offensive line. Without it, we aren't gonna get far unless we have a downhill start and favorable winds. The Quarterback would be the amenities and features. Are they fully loaded or more of a budget model? Manual or automatic transmission? Is it self driving? Do I have to hand crank the windows? Does it stay cool when things get hot? Some of us don't mind hand cranking, but that AC better work. The body and fuel tank would be the skill players. The capacity of the tank determines how far I can take things The style of the body determines how fancy I will look on the road. There are sleek and sophisticated designs There are brutalist, rugged designs There are station wagons. They can all get you where you want to go. Some just take more time and effort and maybe some luck with traffic. Oh, and the fullback... The fullback is the spare tire. It's there if I need it. Some cars have a full size spare. It's a nice luxury. |
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Post by Sawblade300 on Jan 13, 2023 15:02:33 GMT -5
HAHAHA...fullbacks....spare tires. Perfect.
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